Dialectical Behavior Therapy - Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills - Chat Conference Transcript

Michael Staub M.S.: 11/1/02

Rainbow Chaser:

factual

Mishie:

I think it's really important to recognize when you're bending things or as my mom says "hearing what you WANT to hear not what's being said"

Mike:

it's not what my PERCEPTION of it is, or what I think it SHOULD or OUGHT to be, but simply what is
exactly. The facts

Caltex:

what one person's reality is might not be another's

Mike:

that's why I said debatable to your earlier comment, rainbow

Girly:

reality is living in now not the past

Mike:

just because I refuse to ACCEPT reality
doesn't mean it stops

Rainbow Chaser:

how true

Mike:

reality is ALWAYS there, whether we acknowledge it or not, whether we like it or not, whether we agree with it or not
it continues because it IS

Arctic Chill:

Reality is really an ambiguous word, perhaps "situation" or "circumstances"

Mike:

not really....
reality simple means what IS
what is real
the world around us is real
things are really happening

Dubie:

the WTC is real

Mike:

and it is our PERCEPTION of that which most often gets us into trouble

Rainbow Chaser:

?

Mike:

let me give you an extreme example
let's say my phone rings right now and someone the other end tells me that my mother has just died in a car accident
what is reality?

Rainbow Chaser:

your mom is dead........reality

Dubie:

mother is dead

Arctic Chill:

I disagree

Mike:

what do you think, ac?

Arctic Chill:

because the reality IS, you are assuming that the person telling you this is correct
The other reality

Rainbow Chaser:

that is true

Arctic Chill:

could be you are agreeing with them

Mike:

let's assume they are correct - not someone playing a prank on me

Emmespalace:

the reality is you received a very disturbing phone call

Mike:

good, em
yes
the reality is (in this case) that my mother has died
THAT is what is reality

Rainbow Chaser:

but isn't that how your perceived it? That it was disturbing?

Mike:

everything ELSE is what I attach
exactly
the disturbing part is a PERCEPTION

Mike:

the hurt, the pain, the torment I may go through
all perception
something added, by ME, not reality

Rainbow Chaser:

yes........another person may feel differently about the same news

Mike:

bingo
feelings may always be different for each person

Arctic Chill:

Perhaps Reality should be replace with life..."Life" is what you make of it, it doesn't stop despite what you want, and it's our perceptions that can sometimes get us into trouble?

Mike:

and here's a foreshadowing of something from an upcoming talk - your feelings are never WRONG

Rainbow Chaser:

Amen to that one! :)

Mike:

I would consider that arguing over semantics, ac, but if that helps you conceptualize it, then I'm cool with that

Mishie:

they're feelings.. they can't be wrong.. they aren't fact.. they're emotion, emotion is only emotion... not fact.. or fiction

Mike:

I'll get to that point I made when we deal with emotional regulation, but for now, jut take my word on it - if you feel nothing, or if you feel sad, or if you feel okay and happy at the news that your mother or your friend died - its OKAY. Your feelings are not wrong - they just are
mishie - you've done this before, haven't you? ;-)
I've strayed from my point
back to where I was headed
perception and beliefs
one of the things that KILLS our self-esteem is our beliefs. I'm going to get very concrete here and call this "what we tell ourselves"
what we tell ourselves about situations and our own ABILITIES in those situations can have a HUGE impact

Binkahbin:

?

Mike:

for example
let me go back to the earlier objective example I gave
let's say I need a hamburger because I'm hungry
what are the steps I have to take to get a hamburger?
I have to go to Mickey D's
I have to order a cheeseburger

Emmespalace:

or make your own

Mike:

I have to exchange money for the burger
I can't cook, so I have to go to Mickey D's ;-)
those are roughly the steps I have to make to get a cheeseburger
but how about this
what if I'm too scared and I tell myself I can't go to the counter?
I am now standing in the corner of Mickey D's muttering that I want a cheeseburger
what are the odds I'll get one?

Emmespalace:

none

Binkahbin:

slim to none

Mike:

exactly

Arctic Chill:

depends on how badly you want that delicious burger

Mike:

my objective effectiveness is very low because of my self-esteem
I'm telling myself I can't do it and I'm causing a self-fulfilling prophecy
let's look at another example
I need a ride home from group tonight
I want to ask em, but I already KNOW that she is going to say "NO"
my belief is, if she says 'no', it will kill me
will I ask for the ride home?

Emmespalace:

aren't you projecting and didn't we talk about that in mindfulness skills

Binkahbin:

no

Mike:

exactly, on both counts

Arctic Chill:

No

Mike:

my BELIEFS are holding me back
first of all, do I KNOW that em will say no?

Emmespalace:

no you don't

Mike:

(unless Madame Cleo is in the audience, the response here should be no)
and furthermore, if she DOES say no, will it kill me?

Arctic Chill:

I would hope not

Mike:

the real question here is, has anyone said no to me in the past?

Binkahbin:

it would embarrass me

Mike:

bingo
it wouldn't be PLEASANT and I wouldn't ENJOY it
but I've done things I don't like before.
and I've lived through them
this is how we go about CHALLENGING those irrational beliefs we have
the first step is to identify the little buggers.
learn to tell what it is you are TELLING yourself
this is a mindfulness skill
being aware of what is inside
observe your own thought processes
what am I thinking right now?
what thoughts are going through my mind?
and most importantly, what am I telling myself?
once you identify what negative thoughts you are having, you can challenge them
NO ONE is born with a positive mind. or a negative one
these are things we ALL learn and that means we can TRAIN ourselves to have positive thoughts
we ALL have negative thoughts pop into our head
I do
so does everyone I know
the question is, what do we do them and how do we cope?
answer: cheerleading
learn how to cheerlead yourself
this is an excellent cognitive skill
it requires first figuring out what those negative thoughts are, then finding the opposite
for example
one negative thought I have that pops up a lot is that I am not really very competent and that people will find out about me
the way I combat that thought is to challenge it - I tell myself that I AM worthy, that I AM highly competent and that I have helped many people in the past
tired of only negative thoughts popping into your head? try cheerleading statements
what I did for this one was to find 2 or 3 statements and write them on a post-it note
mine were: "I am a great person" and "I CAN do this"
I wrote them on a post-it and put in on the bathroom mirror

Caltex:

?

Mike:

EVERY morning and every time I went into the bathroom, I saw that post-it and said those cheerleading statements OUT LOUD
the out loud part is important - spoken words have power
I no longer have that post-it on my mirror
but I did that for a little over 3 months
guess what happens now?
when I'm showering, I get this thought popping into my head
"I am a great person"
I think I shall have to close and take questions now

Emmespalace:

Caltex your question please

Caltex:

I struggle with the very example you gave about not being very competent - what if you challenge that belief and keep telling yourself that you are competent but in actual fact you are not? If you go on believing you are competent and then flop - doesn't that then backfire on you and destroy the self-esteem you just built up?

Mike:

Wow, lot of questions there. Let me try to work though them
competence can be a tricky thing. Confidence is pretty universal, but I think I see what you're saying.
for example, I am not COMPETENT to practice medicine
I may try, but I have not had the schooling and no matter how much I TELL myself I am, I will not BE competent to practice medicine
is this similar to what you're saying?

Caltex:

yes, something like that - but not to the extent of practicing medicine!!

Mike:

I try to use extremes :-)

Caltex:

I can see that

Mike:

it depends on what it is

Caltex:

but that works well

Mike:

in AA, they have a saying: fake it till you make it

Dubie:

practice until you believe

Mike:

for many of us, competence means building up an experience base until your are able to do it well
do any of you believe I was BORN a competent psychotherapist?
of course not
it took time and training and a LOT of practice

Caltex:

so there has to be practice plus the belief

Mike:

I believe so, yes
to the second part
what if I tell myself I am competent and fail

Arctic Chill:

Re-asses, evaluate, learn and move on

Mike:

do competent people fail?

Arctic Chill:

yes

Mike:

really?

Arctic Chill:

Sure, everyone makes mistakes

Mike:

exactly
even the MOST competent people

Caltex:

I suppose it is tied into that perfectionist ideal

Mike:

when I stop making mistakes, its time for me to move on
bingo

Emmespalace:

girly your question please

Mike:

when I have in my belief system that I CAN no longer makes mistakes because I am too perfect (or too competent), I need to get out
mistakes are what allow me to learn to become a better therapist

Caltex:

ok, thank you - you have clarified those questions for me

Mike:

without them, I would become stagnant and boring :-)
next
(hope that answered it, cal)

Girly:

you said about the cheerleading....well what if somebody tells you everyday you are beautiful and that they love you, you hear the spoken words but it don't sink in ....is it because you yourself isn't saying it?

Caltex:

yes it did, thanks

Mike:

sort of, yes
I believe we covered this a little when we did mindfulness
<shameless plug>
I encourage all of you to go back and review that chat
anyway
can you take a compliment?
what are you telling yourself when he tells you "I love you"?

Girly:

no I have problems with it and I think it goes with the self esteem issue
I don't feel it I hear the words no feeling

Mike:

what are the 'problems'? What do you say to yourself when you hear that?

Girly:

I don't tell myself anything its like I hear it and it goes out the other ear
but actually now I think about it self consciously I think he's just saying that he really doesn't 

Mike:

I doubt this very much. You may believe you don't tell yourself anything because you've never taken a look at it. Next time this happens, try to remove yourself from yourself and just OBSERVE what thoughts are going through your mind
what you are saying to yourself
THERE we go
so when he says, "I love you", what you are saying to yourself is "no, you don't"

Girly:

yes!

Mike:

what makes it hard to believe him?
are you so flawed and imperfect that no one could love you?

Girly:

my insecurities with my own self with my personality

Mike:

again, I will get back to core mindfulness. One of the skills is learning to trust, not judge
you are judging yourself, as well as him, and therefore not able to trust that what he tells you is the truth
after all, how could anyone love someone so fundamentally screwed up?

Girly:

exactly you hit it

Mike:

once you can eliminate THAT thought from your mind, or at least combat it, you will be MUCH closer to being able to understand how and why he loves you
did that help?

Girly:

yes it did thank you so much :)

Emmespalace:

does anyone else has a question for Mike?

Mike:

you're very welcome

Emmespalace:

Mike to you have any closing statements you would like to make?

Mike:

no other questions?

Arctic Chill:

Yeah I would like to testify that I could relate to the "Self-Filling prophecy." That really sucked and I would never do it again.
my 2 cents

Mike:

:-)
well, I hope this was enlightening
I look forward to finishing this section of the skills

Caltex:

yes, once again it was and I look forward to the next one

Arctic Chill:

Very insightful thank you Mike.

Dubie:

yes it is and thank you

Caltex:

thank you

Mike:

I'll work with em to solidify a date in the (hopefully) not too distant future
you are all very welcome

Arctic Chill:

everyone has a good night, and pleasant dreams. :)

Emmespalace:

I just want everyone to know that we will continue this chat on interpersonal effectiveness like Mike said and you can keep informed by signing up for the free newsletter at www.borderlinepersonalitytoday.com 
once again Mike you did a fantastic job, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND ENERGY

Mike:

well, I appreciate the opportunity

Caltex:

thanks again from down under

Mike:

I've greatly enjoyed these chats and I hope they help people

Mike:

*doffs hat*

Emmespalace:

I know they help me mike!

Dubie:

me2

Girly:

me3

Mike:

 :-)
*blushes*
thanks, ya'll. And I think we can work something out, em