Dialectical Behavior Therapy - Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills - Chat Conference Transcript

Michael Staub M.S.: 11/1/02

Emmespalace:

I'm going to get us started by introducing our guest speaker tonight who once again is Mr. Mike Staub. Mr. Staub has a masters in clinical psychology from Northwestern State University in Louisiana and teaches and works with clients with DBT Skills Training.
While it is usually a good thing to chat in a chat room while this chat goes on I'm going to ask that you please not chat but place a? mark next to your name if you have a question, I will take note and call on you in the order of the ? marks
Mike I had a chance to reread the log from the last chat and I was wondering if at some point you would be interested in maybe answering questions people may still have about that chat.

Mike:

of course
fire away at any time
I need to make a standard preface to each of these talks

Emmespalace:

like you told us a lot of information about what the skill is but maybe this time you could give suggestions on how to do them

Mike:

having to do with this not being a substitute for skills training/therapy, etc. etc.
sure. Mindfulness is tough to give specific suggestions, but easier when people can give examples of how THEY'VE used it

Emmespalace:

no I don't mean this to be that but like when you were talking about putting things off I hear people avoiding all the time

Mike:

not certain I understand what you mean by that

Emmespalace:

or like when someone is running those old tapes in their minds about how terrible a person they are, tell them how to stop that not that they just have to stop them

Mike:

well, that isn't a mindfulness skill :-)
we're going to discuss a bit of that tonight, in interpersonal effectiveness
one of the subsets of IE is self-esteem
and self-esteem building

Emmespalace:

ok
we have a couple more people coming to join us now

Mishie:

I think she means just general suggestions on how to make use of the skills you're discussing ... like in that case focusing on the positive to take your mind off the negative

Emmespalace:

yes thanks mishie
Welcome everyone tonight to our chat on Interpersonal Effectiveness DBT Skills

Mike:

thank you
tonight I will continue the talk on Marsha lineman's dialectical behavior therapy skills.
we started this series with mindfulness last month and tonight we shall take a look at interpersonal effectiveness
a word of warning first and foremost:
this is NOT intended to be a comprehensive look at the skills at hand
nor is it meant to serve as therapy or a substitute for skills training
rather, it is meant to review some skills that many of you already know and allow you to ask some questions to help understand the skill better
that said lets look at interpersonal effectiveness :-)
as em noted earlier, my style for this series is a combination of lecture and lecture by getting input from my students
so I'm going to start off by asking ya'll what interpersonal effectiveness is to you?
anyone?

Caltex:

being effective in the way we relate interpersonally to one another

Mike:

what do you think it means?
excellent
anyone else?

Caltex:

that is being respectful to ourselves as well as the other person

Mike:

good
anyone want to add something?

Emmespalace:

listening well to our own needs as well as others

Mike:

alright
lemme tell you what our book says
(I'm using the DBT skills training manual, in case anyone is wondering)
she talks about 4 primary situations when we use interpersonal effectiveness
in attending to relationships, balancing priorities and demands, balancing shoulds-to-wants, and building mastery and self respect
as I detail each of these, see if they make some sense in the context of your own lives.
in attending to relationships, don't let things (hurts, etc.) build up
use your relationship skills to head problems off at the pass, get out of hopeless relationships and resolve conflicts before they destroy relationships
in regards to balancing priorities vs. demands
learn how to put off lower priority things, ASK FOR HELP, create structure
with balancing shoulds-to-wants, learn how to give up 'shoulds'
as we discussed with mindfulness, shoulds allows us to beat up on others and ourselves. They don't reflect reality; they only hinder our way of thinking about reality
and last is building mastery and self respect. 
this has to do with acting in ways that make you feel confident and competent
stand up for yourself, your beliefs and your opinions.
these 4 things are the situations we will be using IE skills in
so what I'd like to look at now is that second handout
it has to do with the GOALS of interpersonal effectiveness

Emmespalace:

what page is that on Mike?

Mike:

what are we trying to accomplish?
116
there are 3 things (goals) that come into play in ANY interaction with another person
(and I DO mean ANY interaction)
this from buying a newspaper from a corner vendor to trying to convince your significant other to do something and every interaction in between
they ALL have these 3 things (goals), in some form or another
they are as follows:
1) objective - getting SOMETHING
that something could be my legitimate rights, getting someone to do something, saying 'no' to an unwanted request, resolving conflict or being taken seriously.
there are 2 questions to ask yourself about objective effectiveness - a) what specific results or changes do I want to see fro this interaction?
and b) what do I have to do to get it?
what will work?
the second goal is 2) getting or keeping a good relationship
with this goal, we have to act in such a way that the other person continues to like AND respect us, as well as balance the immediate goal with the good of the long term relationship
so questions here are: how do I want the other person to FEEL about me after we are done?
and what do I have to do to get (or keep) the relationship?
lastly is self-respect effectiveness.
this is acting in such a way that preserves your own personal integrity and acting in ways that make you feel capable and effective
now that we know what the 3 goals ARE, lets look at them in some detail
objective effectiveness is first, so we'll start there
let's say that I need a ride home from group tonight
I'll have to ask someone, so the ride home is my objective
it's something I'm trying to obtain from another person
in another example ill be using, we might see a McDonalds cheeseburger as an objective.
I'm hungry, and I need to fill my stomach
the cheeseburger becomes my objective
moving on to relationship effectiveness
I'd like to take a brief pause here to explore an often-asked question
what IS a good relationship?

Emmespalace:

one that is equal to both parties

Mike:

so here I'll get some feedback from ya'll again. What things are involved in or required for a good relationship?

Dubie:

open communication

Tailergirl:

respect

Mike:

equality, communication, good
also important
Anyone else?

Tailergirl:

trust

Mike:

trust is another one that often comes up and for myself; caring and compassion are likewise essential

Caltex:

growth

Mike:

figuring out what makes a good relationship for YOU is the important thing
it will be a little different for each and every one of us
tailorgirl might find that trust and open communication are essential for her, while caltex might believe that growth and respect are most important
determine what are things for YOU that are essential, what are the things that are desirable

Patty:

Don't we have to love ourselves?

Mike:

debatable (I'd say yes), but that will come into play more with our last objective, self respect
remember that we have different relationships with different people. I'm not just referring to primary LOVE relationships when ask what's essential in a good relationship
I'm also talking about parent, child, aunt or uncle, friend, co-worker, or just someone you meet on the street
ALL of these are relationships and determining what a good one is for YOU is what's important
for many people, that may be something they've never even pondered before - what makes a good relationship for me?

Patty:

sex
ok I'll be serious.

Mike:

actually, that CAN be an important part
and often DOES come up in my group
I do, however, make one caveat to that
and an important one, at that
I ask people to make sure they engage in SAFE sex
anyone know what I mean by that?

Dubie:

abstinence

Patty:

condoms

Mike:

nope
and nope

Emmespalace:

know your partner use precautions

Rainbow Chaser:

emotionally safe

Mike:

I'm talking about safe EMOTIONAL sex

Arctic Chill:

Choosing the right partner, not giving yourself freely?

Patty:

there IS no safe emotional sex

Mike:

partly right, ac
I have some questions to ask yourself
first
1) how do I feel before, during and especially after I have sex with this person?
there are 3 ways I COULD feel about myself - better than I was, about the same, or worse than I was
safe emotional sex means that, at the very least, you feel about the same as you did before
if you consistently feel WORSE about yourself afterward, you really need to examine that relationship and determine if it is indeed a safe one for you to be in
the other question is a 2 partner
1) what does this person do for me that a pet (dog or cat) COULDN'T do?
basically, what do I get from this person that I COULDN'T get from a pet
and the reciprocal question
what would I get from a pet that I don't get from this person?
let's take some questions

Emmespalace:

Arcticchill your question please

Arctic Chill:

Alright, I have to things
First, you stated "what makes a good relationship for me?"

Mike:

yes. 
what do you find essential to having a good relationship?

Arctic Chill:

this, in my opinion, is not always the case...I personally like to keep an open mind, working both with the person and with myself to develop a good relationship.
this, perhaps, leaves room for self-improvement
Just adding a different perspective

Mike:

true enough. But most people find there are certain things that they are not willing to be flexible on. Things that are absolutely necessary for them to be in a 'good' relationship
such as trust, respect, caring, openness, etc
all these things are very personal and unique to the individual
what's the second question?

Arctic Chill:

Very true...I was going to say something about "safe emotional sex" but that skips my mind...may I finally comment that your question regarding the PET is an excellent way to look at that particular situation

Mike:

thank you, I do what I can. Who else has a question before we go on?

Emmespalace:

Mishie, your question please.

Mishie:

I just thought I should point out. Considering the order of the questions... safe sex is something we shouldn't be getting from our pets. And therefore. Can be discounted in the "what do I get from this person I couldn't get from a pet" question (a bit of jest there but the order of the questions just killed me...)

Mike:

 :-)
yes. the sex, I HOPE, would be filled under the "what do I get from this person I wouldn't from a pet?" category

Mishie:

:D

Mike:

if not, a call to the local ASPCA might be in order, from the neighbors

Emmespalace:

daisy your question please

Daisy:

you said about safe sex emotionally we should feel the same before and after....what about feeling insecure and than feeling really high and top of the world after? Does that make the relationship unhealthy?

Mike:

not necessarily

Mishie:

can I input something here?

Mike:

please do
the insecurity might be coming from within - insecurity about oneself

Mishie:

I think it's ok to feel on top of the world.. as long as that's not the only reason you're doing it. and that's not the only place you get that feeling from. such as. I think I'll sleep with this guy to make me feel better about myself..

Mike:

however - if after sex you regularly feel like crap, even because of your OWN insecurity, that is definitely something you want to look into. It may not be a bad relationship, but you may be suffering from very low self-esteem
wow. EXCELLENT point, mishie

Mishie:

because relying on other people to make you feel good about yourself is very unhealthy, and that can be another facet

Mike:

sex can become like a number of other negative coping skills when used to try to cope with problems you are having

Michelle:

what if you are in love with them and with them for 2 years but you feel like you have to have sex just to get close? 

Mike:

yeah. That's exactly what we are talking about
if the only way I can feel 'close' or 'connected' to you is sex, then there might be some problems to explore there
that falls under that question, "what do I have to do to get (or keep) this relationship?"
if I have to have sex with them in order to keep this relationship, what happens to your self-esteem?
<that was directed mainly towards Michelle>

Michelle:

I don't feel like I have to have sex to keep it but I just want that closeness? and how do you go about doing that?

Mike:

:-)
emotional openness
sharing yourself in a non-sexual way
the way I get close to someone is by being open and honest about my feelings
and listening to what theirs are
does that help?

Girly:

yes it does thanx:-)

Mike:

any other questions before I move on, em?

Arctic Chill:

if I may add something

Mike:

sure

Arctic Chill:

regarding the topic of sex and "closeness"
I find it best to have relationships where the main focus is a sexual interaction with the partner. One thing that I often see people forgetting is that sex is giving to the other person the greatest gift you have yourself. This is also a gift that can never be taken back. Like Mike said, establish honest and open relationship allows for a much healthier relationship that start with a better foundation per-say
main focus is not*

Mike:

the important thing to remember is that sex is a VERY intimate act, but it is NOT (by far) the ONLY intimate act

Emmespalace:

Binkahbin your question please

Binkahbin:

what if all aspects of a relationship are great except for the fact that "I" don't want to have sex

Mike:

this is a problem I sometimes see in my group therapy
good question, bink
when one partner has a dramatically different drive than the other, it often derives from problems with the third thing we are going to discuss, the self-esteem
there are other sources, of course, but this is by and large the most common
[22:24] <Binkahbin> at first I wanted to have it often, but that was when I tho't he wasn't going to be around forever but when he's actually stayed I'm not interested at all

Mike:

other possibilities may include physical problems, relationship problems, or past traumas that inhibit one partner

Binkahbin:

yes, I have ptsd as well and that seems to interfere a lot

Mike:

then in that case, perhaps examine what the difference between those two things is. was it the 'thrill of the one night stand'? or is the fear of monotony? or something else altogether. 
only you can answer that one

Binkahbin:

thank you 

Mike:

I would seek some help working through my ptsd. Perhaps even include your partner, if you are comfortable with that. 
lets look at self-esteem before we totally run out of time
this goal tends to underlie a lot of our interactions with others
it can help us to be more effective or completely paralyze us from doing anything effective
<trying to figure out where to go from here>

Mishie:

self respect
effectiveness
was your next topic I believe

Mike:

time constraints may be keeping me from doing as much as I'd like to here
all right lets do it this way
em has informed me that we can do a separate talk to continue this topic, so I don't feel as confined
that will help a lot

Emmespalace:

what we will do so we don't leave anything out is we will schedule a second chat on this topic.

Mike:

I'm going to finish out this section, then, and take any other questions ya'll might have
I want to talk about beliefs briefly
beliefs are important because they tint how we view reality
earlier, Mishie asked a great question - that being "what IS reality?"
I want to dwell on that for a minute. What does reality mean to ya'll?

Emmespalace:

to a point reality is what is in your mind how you see your world

Rainbow Chaser:

yeah, reality is nothing without a mind to perceive it

Emmespalace:

however your reality doesn't equal someone else's reality

Mike:

debatable

Mishie:

I think reality what's really going on around us, as opposed to what we want to think/believe/pretend is going on. how you think it is can be YOUR reality. but is it always necessarily the true reality?

Mike:

debatable
mishie is a little closer
reality is simply what IS